QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
Q. My concern is that the AKC & ASCA styles of training may not work for HGH.
A. I do not know anything about ASCA herding, however, I am somewhat familiar with the AKC C course which was modeled after the HGH. The C course could be quite similar to the HGH if the maximum number of 100 sheep allowed by the AKC were used in trials. Currently, all I have seen trialed are 20 sheep and once in awhile up to 50. As you know the HGH requires a minimum of 200 sheep for trialing in Germany and for good reason. On the subject of flock size and large flock dynamics, I would strongly recommend you go to http://www.beauce.org/herding.html and read Linda Rorem's article "Tending Breed/Herding Breed" on that page.
Q. The main problem that we are focusing on right now is that her drive for the sheep is OFF THE SCALE!! I didn't want to use much compulsion, so we have been hoping that continued exposure to the sheep will help her calm down. Well, her drive has been going up and up and up. I can barely take her out of the car (where no sheep are visible) without a completely out of control and loud dog.
A. It sounds like you have an excellent HGH prospect in your dog. The higher the drive & attraction for sheep, the better the dog will work as long as you don't damage the drive by over-correcting or over-commanding. Most people fear the high drive because they don't know how to "direct" it - please notice that I say "direct" not "control". As a result of over-controlling & over-correcting, any drive no matter how high can be damaged, distorted or even extinguished. This is what you want to avoid. Let me just offer a few suggestions to start:
- The dog should be restrained on leash (not punished or corrected) around sheep until it learns to calm down - a dog cannot learn anything when it is over-excited & over-stimulated. (See "Circling Behavior & the HGH Style of Herding" and "Teaching Boundary -Style Herding" which describe how to test a dog for boundary instinct & start a dog on the boundary.)
- You need to expose the dog to as large a flock as you can - the flock dynamic is most important here (re. Linda Rorem's article) and it will have a noticeable effect on your dog's behavior around sheep I would bet.
- If you have access to a large flock in a securely fenced, dog-proof area, let the dog free outside the pen to run the fence and wear off its energy with as little interference from you as possible. The dog must learn for itself how to calm down & control itself around sheep. This will take time especially if you only go once or twice a week to work with sheep - have patience. If you do not have access to sheep in a secure pen, run the dog (road work it) for 20-30 minutes at a brisk pace to burn off some energy before starting lessons with sheep.
- Avoid small pen exposure with 3-6 sheep - this is not HGH work - it will only serve to over-stimulate the dog before it knows how to handle its drive & will lead to unnecessary corrections, etc. Way down the road after your dog becomes an experienced herding dog, then you can expect it to be able to work a few sheep, but not at the beginning of its education - you don't want to accustom the dog to work on too many commands which is exactly what would happen if you worked it on a small flock in a small area where the dog would have to be under tight command/control conditions - the dog must learn to work on its own without help or interference from you which is the beauty of the boundary as I tried to explain in my USA article.
- Only put the dog in a position or situation to achieve success in whatever it does around sheep. DO NOT set the dog up to make a mistake & get a correction. Your job is to keep the dog in situations where it can achieve success for praise and confidence building (high drive does not mean the dog automatically has confidence).
- When you start boundary work, find a place where there is a natural boundary like a low rock wall or ditch or some other kind of natural barrier (one that the dog could go over if it wanted to but that would remind the dog to stay behind it).
- Keep the dog on a long (50') line until it responds to "Come" and "Pfui" consistently on the boundary - use a prong collar so that if the dog runs into the flock and doesn't respond to "Come"/"Pfui", it gives itself a good correction when it hits the end of the line. (Corrections must NOT come from your hand or stick - the dog must not become wary of you & lose trust in you.) If a physical correction is absolutely necessary, it must seem to "come out of the blue" to the dog & it must be hard & swift enough so that only one correction is needed to be effective and does not have to be repeated - timing is crucial for an effective correction.
- The faster & more effectively you teach the dog to respect the boundary, the easier it is on everyone (you, the sheep and the dog).
- Once the dog understands the boundary let it work on its own to discover its herding skills with as little interference from you as possible - remember the dog MUST learn to be independent & not reliant on you.
Q. Well, my instructor thinks that a "packed pen" may help put a handle on her drive. My concern is that I have read that the border is the first thing taught to an HGH dog and that they do not get much close-up exposure to the sheep.
A. If your dog does not exhibit drive & interest in the sheep at a distance, you should re-evaluate your assessment of the dog's drive & attraction to sheep. Close up exposure to sheep is only necessary for a dog with low drive. For a dog with high drive attraction to the sheep no artificial stimulation (like up close & in your face stuff, or, like getting the dog to chase the sheep) is necessary. As I said above, the dog must be calm and attentive around sheep before it is able to be taught anything - so if that means increasing your distance from the flock, do it. You must get a clear picture in you mind's eye of just what it is you want to teach your dog before you start, or you will only confuse yourself and your dog.
Q. Well, the training facilities and the sheep are equipped for the AKC and ASCA style of training (3-6 sheep, in relatively small areas). Do you think that these conditions are not conducive to training an HGH dog?
A. These conditions are not conducive to HGH training if they are small areas with only a few sheep. Remember, you can't teach a dog what you don't understand yourself. So the best advice I can give you is to learn all you can about the HGH style of herding you want to do so you have a clear picture in your head, learn and observe all you can about dog and sheep behavior from the animals and, then, trust your own instincts to teach you what to do. You do not need to rely on trainers - let the dog & sheep & your own common sense be your teachers. Just set the simple ground rules for the dog (enforce the boundary) and if you have a good dog all else will fall into place - give it time. If you do not have access to enough sheep or area to practice HGH herding, or if you do not have a dog that wants to do this kind of work and needs to be constantly commanded to do the job, then you might want to consider trying a different style with a trainer whose methods you feel comfortable with. I'm sure Ann Garner's web site would offer you some excellent alternatives: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/5093/trainers.html
Q. I hope that, together, we can figure out this HGH stuff and get my dog an HGH title. Does it usually take more than a year?
A. It depends on how much you can work (how many hours per week & how many days per week). For example, Manfred Heyne probably works his starting dog every day between May and December. The first year the dog only does the boundary as I described in my article - no moving the flock work. The second year the dog is introduced to all the other moving exercises and positioning work with the sheep - positioning (placement) training is obedience work and can be done away from the sheep and practiced wherever there is a gate, bridge, etc. By the Fall of the second year the dog is ready to trial and usually able to get a very high score. It depends on a lot of things. Ask anyone whom trialed in the last years HGH how long they trained. In short, the answer is - to do it right you have to let the dog set the pace.
Q. My instructor uses the "packed pen" as a way to calm high drive dogs down. We did this yesterday by packing a pen so full of sheep that my girl couldn't get the sheep to run because there was no room and we were hoping she would learn to stay on the outside of the sheep to prevent herself from becoming trampled.
A. Putting a novice dog in a packed pen in my opinion is not worth the risk - it presents a high risk of teaching the dog to feel helpless around sheep especially in close situations. Instead, I would put the dog on the outside of the pen - preferably a square pen not a round one. Let the dog free outside the pen just like I described doing in the barn in the winter. Let the dog run around the fence line to get a feel for its effect on the sheep. Because the sheep are in the pen they cannot do too much running and so not over-stimulate the dog's chase instinct and the dog will learn how to moderate its behavior. Having the dog on the outside eliminates the risk of damaging the dog's confidence around sheep - it lets the dog work out any confidence problems it might have on its own by interacting on its own terms with the sheep. Once the dog gains experience around sheep it should become calmer just because it has learned what to expect. Just because a dog is "high drive" & excited around sheep does not mean it is confident. The attraction coupled with not knowing what to expect will cause the dog to behave excitedly mainly because it has not learned how to effectively use its drive around the sheep. Giving the dog freedom around sheep in a secure pen allows the dog to learn at its own pace how to use its drive effectively and it will be able then to behave calmly.
Q. As to her behavior in a more open area, it has been changing, that is why we decided on the packed pen. Her first time out, she was being very handler sensitive and unsure (looking at me more than I would like).
A. That is perfectly normal for the 1st exposure to sheep.
Q. On her second time out we let her loose and she would only grip when a sheep separated itself from the others, darting away.
A.Their instinct is to stop the sheep from running away - that is why when the sheep starts to head back to the flock the dog stops chasing it normally.
Q. She would let go immediately and had a mouth full of wool. My instructor says that she prefers to go for the heads and keep the sheep still.
A. That is exactly the right behavior. You will see when you start the road work when you lead the sheep the dog will always want to cover the front to keep the flock from moving ahead too fast & "getting away".
Q. If she gets the pack running she will cut them off but still has the tendency to be in too close to keep them calm.
A. If you can figure out how to let her do the boundary, she will learn all by herself how to rate herself off the stock just by working the boundary by herself.
Q. If we hold her back, she barks and her drive goes up. This may be because of her SchH training where the dog is taught to fight the tension in the leash.
A. It is the same behavior you see when you put a fence between the dog and the sheep (or between two dogs & get fence fighting). Again, this is why if you could get her to do the boundary you would eliminate this behavior. The boundary allows the dog to deflect its drive & energy away from the sheep and onto the boundary (patrolling - going back & forth). Once the dog learns to do this it has found a permitted outlet for expressing its drive.
Q. On two occasions, we have tried putting the line around her ribs under her armpits. We hoped that she would not fire up as much as the tension around her neck did. Well, she has had two rope burns from both occasions because of her pulling so we will no longer restrain her.
A. When I first started with Manfred I insisted on a similar thing much to his dismay - he thought I was nuts! I don't think he had ever used a long line or even knew what one was. If you read my USA article you will see what I say about handlers who need to control the dog vs handlers who want to work with the dog's instincts by letting go of the control methods. IF your dog has that genetic obedience (willingness to please) you must learn to use it and to use THAT as your leash (the commands "Come", "Stay" and "Get Out" should become your leash). If & when your dog consistently responds to those commands to keep her on the boundary, let her off the leash and let her work free. You stand inside the boundary between the dog and the sheep to be able to block her if she tries to run in by throwing your crook down in front of her to stop her charge if she does not obey the command to "Get Out". You seem to have a dog that does not have a gripping problem so that is one big worry you don't have - I should have been so lucky.
Q. Hence, the packed pen.
A. I hope I dissuaded you from the packed pen. Get her onto the boundary!!!! It sounds like you have a very good dog who wants to work sheep - teach her to understand the boundary and she will teach herself everything she needs to know for HGH.
Q. Did I answer your questions? Basically, her drive has been going up with each session, to the point where she is no longer thinking but just acting,
A. If the drive is going up because of greater restraints, it may be that her frustration level is going up & you do not want that. GET HER ON THE BOUNDARY and then leave her alone (I mean be quiet) to learn how to work.
Q. That is why we had to do something different. We have let her grip without discipline without any injuries to the sheep.
A. That's fine as long as the gripping is appropriate. If it is uncalled for or damaging then you should at least give her a sharp "PFUI!" or a strong enough physical correction to stop the unacceptable behavior.
Q. My instructor does lean toward functional herding more than show herding.
A. Didn't a wise man once say "Form follows function."? Too many people just want to learn to trial (form) their dogs without understanding how to herd (function).
Q. I just started this herding thing about 2 months ago but they do train in a barn in the winter. Maybe that won't work for HGH training?
A. Working in the barn in winter is excellent for the dog if the barn is set up for it. Actually, it is not working your dog. What you want to do is just let the dog free in the barn (assuming the sheep are in enclosures). My barn is set up so that all my sheep are enclosed by a combination of 4' high 8' long metal fence panels and hay/grain feeders. I have 150 sheep so they are in a large area. I bring my dogs in with me when I feed & water twice a day in the winter. The dogs are free to do whatever they want which is always to work the outside of the fence line in the barn. They work it just like a boundary outside. The only time I say anything to the dogs or interfere in what they are doing is if they try to get over the fence (seldom but sometimes they can try it). The result of doing this all winter is that the dog will have learned how it effects sheep - that the dog can get sheep to react to it (have power over the sheep) even when it is not in direct contact with t he sheep. It is a great confidence builder, believe me. Also, it allows the dog to practice its moves on sheep without any interference from you - this will get the dog used to working independently when you get outside in the spring. It also gets you to relax around the sheep & dog & not think you have to constantly interfere. It can be a good opportunity for you to watch how the dog behaves & interacts with the sheep on its own - that also helps you know what to expect when everyone goes outside in the spring. Any obedience work you do & proofing (commands you want to teach the dog) should be done somewhere else away from the sheep. You can practice the "Come" to recall the dog away from the sheep - to get it used to being called away from the sheep and obeying. Just don't overdo it.
Q. We let her loose to run on the outside of the pen. She ran all the way around it even though the distance around it is farther from me than she cares to go. She seemed to show no tendency to keep track of me or to "check in" with me like when we go camping or hiking. She soon learned to go to the side of the fence that the sheep were closest to and eventually the sheep just stayed in the middle. Soo...
A. That is VERY good that she learned to go to the side of the fence closest to the sheep - excellent. Remember the sheep aren't used to this kind of work & neither is the dog. It is natural that the sheep would clump together in the middle of the pen or the graze (away from the dog) until they get used to relaxing around the dog. Correct me if I'm wrong but the sheep you use are probably only used for A course herding? If so, they are not used to be taken with a dog for their daily meals (graze). The sheep need time to learn that they are safe with a dog that stays on a boundary around them while they eat. Once the sheep figure out the routine, they will learn to relax & spread out to graze in the pen or in the field while the dog works on the boundary. Sooooo.... don't worry about the sheep clumping together in the middle. The more your dog works with them on a boundary the faster they will learn they are safe inside boundaries & will spread out & graze. HGH is slow, patient herding as opposed to the faster paced A course style. You had better get used to watching grass grow if you want to do HGH herding :-)). Do your SchH for aerobics and your HGH for yoga - that's a good balance.
Q. From there we decided to take the sheep to the alfalfa field where there is a road, of course, with the help of the veteran border collie.... I took my dog in, on leash, and brought her back around behind the sheep. This big ram just stood and looked at her like "I dare you." Well, I held her back because I was intimidated, then I shook it off and gave her some slack and she scared him off. Once on the alfalfa, I put a prong on and said "pfui" with a correction when she stepped off the road. She would go up and down a little without the attentiveness to the sheep that I would like. Maybe I was out of dog for the day so I told her to lie down and she did for a while watching them, then I put her away.
A. Your dog is just starting this kind of herding. Prior to it she has learned other things that probably make her look to you more for direction. She has to re-learn her relationship with you. She also has to discover the sheep in a new light perhaps. Therefore, don't be too concerned at this point if she sniffs around & isn't 100% attentive to the sheep yet. Let her discover her interest in them at her own pace. Once she does she will turn on much faster. You really just have to be patient.
Describe the borders of the alfalfa field for me. Meanwhile I'll assume the road is one border and maybe the other 3 sides have borders of different vegetation that are easily visible to the dog? I'll also assume it's a pretty big field & that the sheep can move fairly far away from the dog?
OK - you have your dog on a 50' long line & you have picked your spot to stand on the boundary. (By the way you can change the boundary or the place on the boundary where you stand depending on the location of the sheep - you do not have to stay planted in one spot the whole time.) Just stand there holding the end on the long line leaving the dog free with full slack. Let her do anything she wants as long as she does not go straight into the graze at the sheep. If she goes in a little off the boundary it doesn't matter, just remind her with your voice to get back onto the border if necessary. If she charges in, call her out - if she doesn't respond, let her correct herself by hitting the end of the long line on the prong.
Time your verbal correction ("Pfui"/"Out") to coincide with her hitting the end of the long line. Right after the correction call her back out again. The object is to try to get her to respond to you willingly & not out of fear (she should not have associated the long line correction with you - it should have come out of the blue to her) - from what you have described of your dog I don't think you will have a problem getting her to respond to your voice. I think you will be able to keep her on the boundary with voice direction and so avoid physical corrections (see my article "Boundary Instinct" where I describe Manfred working Frensi using his voice to keep her on the boundary - try that). Your long line should only be your backup security in case the dog gets out of control and needs to be caught. Remember that beginning boundary work for the dog does not have to be exact. Expect the dog in the beginning to only do "rough" boundaries and "stop & go" boundaries at first - as the dog figures out the game and the meaning of the boundary, her work should become more fluid & consistent. Do not expect more from your dog than she is able to give - even a "rough" boundary deserves praise in the beginning. There is plenty of time to shape things up more exactly later after the dog has fully developed confidence around sheep - once she has developed confidence on the boundary then she can handle the pressure of corrections without losing drive. Keep in mind - you know what you want to be doing now but the dog doesn't yet know or understand. Try to make all this starting work "up" & fun for the dog otherwise you run the risk of shutting her down. BE PATIENT! Remember that grass grows slowly.
Q. I would much rather use my voice than a physical correction.
A. You may end up having to do physical corrections also, but for the sake of the dog & preserving her drive & trust you must try voice control first.
Q. I also thought that it was necessary to define a very specific border.
A. It IS necessary to define a specific border BUT I don't adhere to the belief that you must fixate on making the dog march on it 100% of the time right from the very beginning. I believe that the dog must first learn the rough idea ("stay off the sheep here" - and a clear path or border helps the dog remember where the "here" is). Once the dog does learn the rough idea and has learned to feel confident on the boundary then you can ask it to be more precise. I think the mistake that most people make trying to teach the dog boundary work is that they focus on the "form" (boundary & other HGH exercises) and forget they ought to first learn the "substance" (how to herd the sheep - the meaning behind the form).
Q. About the borders of the alfalfa field, one side is the dirt driveway (that I spoke of) which has 2-4ft of mowed grass on the side before the alfalfa field starts. Should I designate the edge of the road as the border or the beginning of the alfalfa?
A. Technically you can designate anything you want the border. Practically, you want to set the border off a comfortable distance from where you want the sheep to graze up to. In other words, if you want the sheep to eat up to the edge of the mowed strip then set the boundary on the road. If you want the sheep to eat up to the side of the road then set the boundary on the opposite side of the road. The reason for this is that the sheep will not graze right up to the dog's boundary, they always leave an uneaten no-man's-land between them and the dog. You should play around with where you want to make your boundary. For example, if the graze is tight (not much room for the number of sheep) and the sheep are forced to graze near the boundary and the dog is just starting and still overly stimulated by the sheep being too close then make the boundary on the other side of the road. Make the boundary where everyone is comfortable (dog, sheep & you). After the dog becomes more experienced, she can do a boundary right up along side the sheep and they won't tempt her to dive into them and they will have learned to tolerate the dog real close without panicking.
Sometimes if your dog is really good and focused on the sheep it pays to let the dog choose its own boundary if there is a choice. For example, you have 3 choices for a boundary on the roadside of the alfalfa field: the border where the alfalfa meets the mowed grass; the road itself; and, the grass on the opposite side of the road. You could stand at the edge of the alfalfa (where the alfalfa meets the mowed grass) and not allow the dog go further in than that line - period. But, if the dog works farther outside that boundary - say on the road or even across the road, let her as long as she is working (keeping focused on the sheep and moving along the boundary as necessary). As it gains confidence, the dog will move its boundary closer in to the sheep. You can gauge the dog's confidence level by how closely it wants to work the sheep. And, you can gauge the dog's trustworthiness working the boundary by the way the sheep behave - if the sheep clump together & do not trust the dog then you can bet the dog is sending signals that it wants to dive into the sheep - if the sheep are calm, they are telling you the dog is working reliably.
Ellen Nickelsberg
Nickelsberg's Farm
44 Chase Lane
Medusa, NY 12120
Phone: 518-239-4972
E-mail:info@german-shepherdherding.com